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Post by sagemaster on May 23, 2020 0:11:00 GMT
Hi, I just found this site and forum while looking for good resources for translating names into Sindarin. I recently started to write a fantasy setting for role playing (if anyone is interested it lives here: www.worldanvil.com/w/taur-en-gwaedh---the-great-forest-sagemastress It's very bare bones but I am soon finished with a few more articles for it). Since my setting is focused on a large forest mostly populated by elves (and orcs) I wanted to get my naming from Tolkiens beautiful languages. I'm a complete noob with it though (I looked through some of the lessons and I'm working though the others) and would like some aid in how things work.
Similarly I have some forest elves that I would like to call something like "those who sing to the trees", "elves of the treesong", "voices of the forest" or something similar, but I am not sure on how word order works in Sindarin and what is most reasonable for location and group names in terms of compounds and length of words. Should it be "those who sing to the trees" or "tree singers" or something else? What is the difference between glir- and linna-? Should it be something like Orllinn, Mellorlinn, Geledhlinn or is Ornglir, Mellorglir, Geledlir more suitable? Or are all these options wrong and the "sing" part should come before the "tree" part? What would be good naming convention?
How about Orllinnedhel, Mellorlinnedhel, Geledhlinnedhel? Or should it be shortened somehow?
Also what do you think would be the most poetic way to name any of these groups? I will post the Sindarin-lacking articles to my setting soon, if that helps in understanding what I am after.
I definitely have more examples of things I want to name, but this post is getting long and it's late for me. If anyone is willing to help me I will come back to this thread with more questions.
Thanks in advance
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Post by Xandarien on May 24, 2020 18:57:31 GMT
Moon Elves:
Ithillim = People of the full moon
Ithildir = Full moon watcher(s)
Raudhrim/Rodhrim = People of the moon
Rondir = Moon watcher
The second one of each is more a single person to my mind rather than a description of an entire clan/house/tribe/race. As in you'd have one Rondir, two Rendir.
Word order in names is reversed to normal Sindarin and like English (as in adjective first then noun, Mithrandir = Grey pilgrim, Mith = Grey, Randir = Wanderer). So in 'tree song' for example you'd do 'tree' then 'song'.
Difference between Glir- and Linna-
Glir- = to sing, trill, recite a poem (more Beowulf than Taylor Swift)
Linna- = to sing, chant (could be Gregorian chant but equally any singing)
Possible names for your forest elves:
Using 'Orn = Tree'
Orlin = Tree song
Orlindrim = People of the tree song
Orlinnor = Tree singer
Orlinnorim = People who sing to trees
Using 'Galadh = Tree'
Galadhlin = Tree song
Galadhlindrim = People of the tree song
Galadhlinnor = Tree singer
If you're wondering about Galadhlinnorim it exceeds Tolkien's maximum syllable count so I can't give you that.
Voices of the forest
Taur 'forest', Glim = Voice
Torlimmath = Voices of the forest
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Post by sagemaster on May 24, 2020 22:01:09 GMT
Thank you so much for the detailed answer is raud-/rod-/ron- from randír (wanderer)? So I know if I implicitly will be referencing the moon for it's shine or it's passage.
As a Swede I am used to long words, but I get that 'Galadhlinnorim' would be a bit long and contrived, I guess 'people who sing to trees' would be conveyed in multiple words then? How would that look?
Also, what is the conceptual difference between 'Orn' and 'Galadh'? Is one of them more general than the other or are they both connected to a distinct set or type of trees? Or is the difference of some other kind? (I just double checked the dictionary and realized that is said 'Galadh' was big and 'Orn' just general but if there is some more to it I would love to hear it too)
I realized after my post that you had a general thread for translations. If/when (probably when) I have more questions related to this project, do you prefer if I post then there or continue in this thread? It's practical for me with the separate thread, but I want to be a good forumite.
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Post by Xandarien on May 25, 2020 8:49:34 GMT
Raun and Randir both come from the same root, √RAN root. “wander, stray, meander, go on an uncertain course, go aside from a course (commanded or self-chosen); err” see here for more information. Ithil is the full moon, the Sheen, Raun is the general moon (and Cúron is the crescent moon). Orn is any tree, Galadh is a larger thicker tree with a denser canopy (like an oak or a beech). There's also an argument that Galadh replaced Orn as the general word for 'tree'. People who sing to trees: Lî linnar an 'elaidh/yrn Lî = People (of one kind or origin) linnar = they sing an = to/for gelaidh = trees / yrn = trees Linnyr in gelaidh/yrn = Singers of the trees Linnyr = Singer, plural of Linnor in = of the gelaidh = trees / yrn = trees I don't mind where you post, if you want to keep all yours together in the one thread here is fine  |
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Post by sagemaster on May 25, 2020 19:33:59 GMT
Ok, I'm going with Raudhrim/Rondir depending on formality level and Galadhlindrim even though I like Torlimmath as well and might use an 'from the outside' name for them in some cases as well. I have another important question for my setting. Currently I have just been calling it 'The great forest' but I would like to name it in Sindarin properly now. I am considering translations of '(the) great forest', '(the) wast forest' or 'forest of the compact' (as in oath or pledge) or even 'the great forest of the compact'. The forest stretches from north of the equator all the way to the south pole and includes tropical and temperate rain forest, various temperate forests all the way to thick taiga in the south. It is sustained by a magic compact between it's inhabitants, the gods and the forest itself as well as monsoons from the east. If anyone has any other poetic name suggestions I would appreciate them 'Taur' seems to cover both forest and great in itself unless I misunderstood and some variant of 'gwaedh', 'gwest' or 'wǣdē' represents 'compact' right? So should it be 'Gwaethor'? Is there a difference between 'the forest of the compact' and 'forest of compact'? I also want to differentiate between 'the forest of the compact' and 'the compact of the forest' which might be a longer name for the compact itself if it is reasonable to make a compound in that case rather than using separate words. |
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Post by Xandarien on May 26, 2020 8:46:01 GMT
Taur does indeed mean 'huge forest', you've also got Eryn = Wood, forest as an option giving you Eryn Dhaer = Great Forest.
Forest of the compact:
Taur-en-gwaedh
following Tolkien's naming of forests like Taur-e-Ndaedelos, Taur-im-Duinath etc.
If you wanted to put it together as a single word like Rhudaur = East forest, then I would suggest Gwaethor as you already put together.
i 'waedh e daur = The compact of the forest
i daur en gwaedh = The forest of the compact
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Post by sagemaster on Jun 20, 2020 18:12:57 GMT
Soo, I have some more names I would like some help with.
In my setting I have a couple of deities that I need to name. The Raudhrim primarily worship three deities who are in a turbulent triangular relationship.
The first one I need help with is my sorrow and storm goddess. She is the elven goddess of rain, sorrow, the ocean, storms, fury and catharsis. She is the second oldest of the three main gods of the moon elves. As the embodiment of emotion and action she is the bringer of new life force into the world. In the moon elf genesis legend she sprang to life with the first tear that was shed, and as it fell to the ground, the barren land changed and plants started to grow.
I have been thinking that her name would translate to 'tempest' (nice double meaning) or 'the passionate', possibly with a -dess or -eth ending if that is appropriate for god names (she is a mother of several other entities and should not be designated as maiden or daughter). Something in the lines of 'the lamenting' or 'the wailing' or such could also work. I there are any nice double-meaning words in Sindaring along these themes that would of course be ideal.
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Post by Xandarien on Jun 20, 2020 21:05:46 GMT
Alagos = Wind-storm (tempest)
Alagossil = Female wind-storm
Alagossel = Female wind-storm
Alagosseth = Female wind-storm
Dess didn't survive, its meanings got subsumed into Bess = Woman and Dîs = Bride.
For 'passionate' I think 'Emotion-full' would work, Felphant (Felf = Emotion, Pant = Full)
For 'lament' we have Naergon = Woeful lament
Naergonil
Naergonel
Naergoneth - all 'female woeful lament'
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Post by sagemaster on Jun 20, 2020 22:48:21 GMT
Wow, you're quick to answer, thanks again. I might use several of these as the name used by different groups. I will probably get back with some more questions for deity and location names tomorrow |
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Post by sagemaster on Jun 22, 2020 19:41:47 GMT
What would a wide strait called Rushtide (probably as a shortened version of a previous longer name "Rushtide channel/strait") translate to in Sindarin? Duinen + asgar are probably the right words but in what order (keeping the silent "strait" in mind)?
Also what whould then the bay and settlement "Rushtide cove/refuge" next to it be called?
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Post by Xandarien on Jun 23, 2020 8:37:54 GMT
Looking at attested place names we have Rauros (Roaring spray, but earlier had a gloss of Rush-rain), the river Rhimdad 'Rushdown' and the tributary Ascar/Asgar 'rushing, impetuous'.
R(h)imduinen = Rush-(high)tide (Rhib- may have become Rib- in later Sindarin hence the 'h' in brackets).
Asgarduinen doesn't sound very nice, Asgarduin is a bit better 'rush-river' with full meaning 'a wide large river'.
For 'bay/cove/refuge'
Lond Rimduinen = Haven of Rimduinen
Lond Asgarduin = Haven of Asgarduin
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Post by sagemaster on Jun 27, 2020 14:27:34 GMT
Thanks again.
So now I need to name my moon god now. They are gender neutral and since we named the moon elves Raudhrim it is natural to base it on randír. A natural option would be to use Mithrandir but since Gandalf it called that I want to find something else. Since they are a very distant and mysterious deity I think maybe distant + wanderer would be nice (mysterious , elusive or similar could also be good). Would that be hae/haeron + randir = haerodhrandir or haerandir or something else? But I also realised that randír ends in -dir, is it male? If so I would like to change both this name and the name for the moon elves (your first post in this thread) to be gender neutral, how would that best be changed?
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Post by Xandarien on Jun 27, 2020 19:51:52 GMT
Distant wanderer:
I'd go for Haer = Distant, remote.
Just to answer your other question first -
Randir is a masculine word yes, it's the root RAN and dîr 'man, male'.
Raudhrim/Rodhrim are gender neutral already as it's 'Moon (as the wanderer) + tribe'.
So next, how do we make a gender neutral word for 'wanderer'?
A while ago Vyc came up with Rannor, another option could be Ramben (Pen = someone). That would give you Haerannor/Haeramben = Distant wanderer.
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Post by sagemaster on Jul 8, 2020 23:25:55 GMT
So my third main god is a tree god (the god of trees and plants, patient, growth and the great longing). I think andreth seems like a good base word for this (male) deity. What would that make for in a name?
Andrethon?
Andrethdir?
They both feel like they could be slightly off, should the base andreth shift in any way in this case, or maybe the suffixes? As far as I could tell from lesson 38 they should not, but I am unsure.
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Post by Xandarien on Jul 9, 2020 9:43:58 GMT
Andreth was used on its own as a (female) name back in the First Age (Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth). As it has no inherent gender to it you could use it on its own for any gender.
Andrethon sounds fine, Andrethdir doesn't but THD was an acceptable cluster in Noldorin*, I'll have a check for later Sindarin.
*Hithdilias, Pendrethdulur
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