[11/18/2015 7:19:51 PM] Gelaníril: I'm trying to work out ways to respond to a thank you. I know I've seen i 'ell nîn, which I think is essentially "my pleasure". Are there any other ways to respond? [11/18/2015 7:22:29 PM | Edited 7:23:57 PM] : there is Ci nathlo which is your welcome.
[11/19/2015 12:39:59 PM] Gelaníril: How would you say yes in the sense of "I agree with what you said" rather than "yes, I will" ? [11/19/2015 12:41:23 PM] Xandarien: I nauth nîn sui i nauth gîn, my thought is as your thought, or something along those lines [11/19/2015 12:49:00 PM] Xandarien: Or, Nauthemen imu, Our thoughts are the same
[11/19/2015 3:22:37 PM] Gelaníril: I have a grammar question. If I say "the warm fire", warm is an adjective. I know that much. So, it would be "i naur laug" But, what part of speech is the word warm if I say "the fire is warm"? [11/19/2015 3:25:43 PM] Xandarien: It's a Complement phrase [11/19/2015 3:25:55 PM] Xandarien: Subject + Complement [11/19/2015 3:26:57 PM] Xandarien: Complements tend to follow the copula (the verb 'to be') and say something about the subject - The man is tall, the woman is fat, the child is young etc. [11/19/2015 3:28:01 PM] Xandarien: Unfortunately as 'laug' doesn't mutate, I laur naug = the fire is warm, *and the warm fire [11/19/2015 3:27:45 PM] Gelaníril: so, complements sort of add more information about the subject? [11/19/2015 3:28:09 PM] Xandarien: Yes exactly [11/19/2015 3:30:26 PM] Sidhiel: Xand, i remember in your lesson, you did mention to add "no" for a sentence like i naur laug...to... i naur no laug..the fire is warm... am i right? [11/19/2015 3:30:48 PM] Xandarien: Yes you can do that in these sort of sentences, I naur no laug - the fire be warm [11/19/2015 3:30:51 PM] Xandarien: it removes that ambiguity [11/19/2015 3:31:41 PM] Xandarien: (just try and forget it sounds like the person can't speak English properly, or comes from the West country looks around in case I'm going to offend someone ahem) [11/19/2015 3:49:50 PM] Gelaníril: The warm fire = i naur laug correct? [11/19/2015 3:50:19 PM] Xandarien: Yip, that's right [11/19/2015 3:50:45 PM] Gelaníril: But I am totally confused on how to say "the fire is warm" [11/19/2015 3:50:55 PM] Xandarien: I naur no laug, or I naur laug [11/19/2015 3:51:13 PM] Xandarien: Is/are are implied in Sindarin, there's no word for them [11/19/2015 3:51:30 PM] Xandarien: I iaul morn = The cat is black, I iaul vorn = The black cat [11/19/2015 3:51:38 PM] Xandarien: Mutation shows the difference. But Laug doesn't change [11/19/2015 3:54:46 PM] Gelaníril: So, it might be less confusing to say I naur no laug in this case. I was trying write a bit of dialogue to practice lesson 6. And I had a bit that said "Come, sit! The fire is warm and the food is good. " [11/19/2015 3:55:44 PM] Xandarien: Ah ha. Yeah, I'd use 'no' [11/19/2015 3:55:54 PM] Xandarien: How did the rest of the dialogue go? [11/19/2015 3:57:21 PM] Gelaníril: Oh, it is more than I have time to write out right now. I'll post it on the translation topic on the forum later. And then, you can catch all my mistakes. [11/19/2015 3:59:13 PM] Gelaníril: On the food is good, would I use maer for good? And, would it mutate or not? (I had ended up rewording my dialogue originally to avoid this stuff) [11/19/2015 4:02:35 PM] Xandarien: Yes use maer [11/19/2015 4:02:48 PM] Xandarien: If it's "I vann maer" = the food is good, no [11/19/2015 4:02:52 PM] Xandarien: I vann vaer = The good food
Using Boe, the verb Gwa- and how to say "I must go"
[11/18/2015 8:56:50 AM] Sidhiel: Suil Xand....u mentioned "boe gwaen" twice...I am not sure if I have seen such example/sentence in one of your lessons before. .. could u please explain why you use "gwaen"? [11/18/2015 8:57:48 AM] Xandarien: Gwaen - I am going [11/18/2015 8:57:51 AM] Xandarien: or I go [11/18/2015 8:58:08 AM] Xandarien: Gwa- is the attested word, I'd rather people didn't use Men- as it was made up by Salo [11/18/2015 9:00:31 AM] Sidhiel: I mean... when i see "boe gwaen"... i read it as it is necessary (that) i go..." is it right? [11/18/2015 9:00:47 AM] Xandarien: Yes, or in everyday English, "I must go" [11/18/2015 9:00:59 AM] Sidhiel: I'm okay to use gwa- my question is more grammar related [11/18/2015 9:01:14 AM] Sidhiel: Ah ok [11/19/2015 4:04:24 PM] Sidhiel: Xand, when i asked u last time about "boe gwaen", i think i either forgot what u say or didnt ask my question clearly enough... [11/19/2015 4:04:47 PM] Sidhiel: Why is it:"boe gwaen", but not "boe gwaed"? [11/19/2015 4:05:48 PM] Xandarien: Boe gwaed = It is necessary to go [11/19/2015 4:06:05 PM] Xandarien: Boe gwaen = It is necessary I go [11/19/2015 4:06:19 PM] Xandarien: Gwaen - I go, I am going
[12:59:22 AM | Edited 1:05:54 AM] Gelaníril: Xand... when we use maer... (ci maer, mae 'govannen, garo tinnu vae) sometimes there is an r at the end of maer, and sometimes not. Why? [3:31:12 AM] Xandarien: Mae = Well, Maer = Good [11:50:56 AM] Xandarien: Fuin vae would be a shortened form of a fuller more correct sentence (based on Ae Adar Nîn) of No mae/maer i fuin gîn, may your night be well/good
Ir echuiathogir... nauthannen i dass en arad natha aen Cilf a Levain
[11:53:00 AM] Xandarien: Ir echuiathogir... nauthannen i dass en arad natha aen Cilf a Levain Ir = when, echuiathogir = you will all awaken (could have used echuiogir, you are all awake in fairness), nauthannen = I thought I dass en Arad = the task of the day [11:53:28 AM] Xandarien: Natha aen = it could be (but yes looks like 'he could help') [11:53:51 AM] Xandarien: Cilf, Celf = any animal, Levain = any small four legged not lizard creature
[19-Dec-2015 9:43:46 PM] Sidhiel: Xand...there are quite a few words for dwarf
[19-Dec-2015 9:44:15 PM] Sidhiel: Which one should i use? What are the differences in those words for dwarf?
[1:22:50 AM] Xandarien: Okay, words for dwarf!
[1:23:46 AM] Xandarien: Ones that derive from Naug (Naugrim, Niben-nog) come from 'stunted' and are an unfriendly way to describe them (Elves that don't like Dwarves).
[1:25:11 AM] Xandarien: Hadhod is the normal word, comes from 'Dwarrowdelf' (Tolkien stated that the 'real historical' plural of Dwarf would be Dwarrow).
[1:28:40 AM] Xandarien: So if you were talking about 'a dwarf', then you'd say I hadhod han - that Dwarf, unless you really don't like Dwarves, and then you'd say I naug han = That stunted one. Similarly if you're talking about 'Dwarves' using class plurals, if you liked them you'd say Hadhodrim, if you really liked them and respected them you'd say Gonnhirim (masters of stone), and if you didn't like them you'd say Nogothrim or Naugrim which both mean 'the stunted folk'.
[1:51:03 AM] Xandarien: Nornwaith - the twisted, crabbed folk would also be one to use if you didn't like them
[1:51:50 AM] Xandarien: Anfang and Anfangrim (Longbeard singular and class plural) is more specific, and refers to Durin's Folk only
[1:52:18 AM] Xandarien: Dornhoth would I think be on a par with Hadhod, it means 'thrawn folk' so you're complimenting their strength
a II interj. O! See also ai I ai I interj. ah! alae interj. behold! baw interj. no, don't! ego interj. be off! be gone! elo interj. an exclamation of wonder ma interj. good nae interj. alas novaer interj. and n. farewell [5:28:57 PM] Celedethor: that's the complete list
[12:44:25 PM] Sidhiel: Xand, when we make names, like Tolkien, he simply made the same sound out of the original word...eg. Jesus >>> Iesus, Mary >>> Meri, and i also saw Cele doing the same thing...Xand >>> San... what do we base on when we make names only by the pronunciations of the original words?
[12:47:21 PM] Sidhiel: In Lesson 34, making names, u mentioned about combining 2 words together. ..is it possible to have 3 words combined into one?
[12:53:09 PM] Xandarien: I'm fairly certain there aren't any examples of more than 2 elements in a name, so I wouldn't use 3
[12:54:40 PM] Sidhiel: I saw this word in your dic...and i didnt tend to use it at all
[12:55:03 PM] Sidhiel: But now u have brought up this word, with ur lesson 34 in front of my eyes. .hehe
[12:55:13 PM] Sidhiel: Ithil is moon
[12:55:27 PM] Sidhiel: Dir..should be the star part of the word, right?
[12:56:04 PM] Sidhiel: I wonder where D in dir came from
[12:56:19 PM] Sidhiel: By looking at the charts in the lesson
[09:46:33] Xandarien: Sidh, answer to your other question about Jesus/Iesus, Mary/Meri etc., it's just a case of matching the closest available sounds. Obviously J and Z don't exist in Sindarin so it ends up being /yesus/ but Mary and Meri are much closer. Z -> S, J -> I and so on. [09:46:43] Xandarien: X -> S if it's pronounced as /z/
Ae boe anlen an 'ared mîn Peng i gestha Huin egor vîn Magol i chîr Lainc... iallo nin...
[12/23/2015 11:05:22 AM] Gelaníril: Ok. Can you explain the present tense of to be? I only see the past and future tense forms of 'to be' in the lessons. [ [12/23/2015 11:08:23 AM] Celedethor:
na- I am = naun you are = nal / nag he is = naw we are = nam you are = nelir / negir they are = nar
[12/23/2015 11:09:47 AM] Gelaníril: I do wonder if it is suitable to use ni/ci when we ask ci maer or say ni maer, since it isn't such a good idea to use them when we say we are hungry or such things. [12/23/2015 11:10:21 AM] Celedethor: technically that is when i always use na- [12/23/2015 11:10:32 AM] Celedethor: except here [12/23/2015 11:11:21 AM] Celedethor: but i agree that this sounds controversial [12/23/2015 11:11:34 AM] Gelaníril: Xand has this sentence in the lesson, "The difference between Naun/Non and Naw/No is listed by David Salo as the following: "Naun and Naw are used when the word takes a strong stress in the sentence.
Non and No are used when the word is weakly stressed." (A Gateway to Sindarin)" Do you know where the non and no would be? [12/23/2015 11:12:28 AM] Celedethor: i just use "naun" and "naw" [12/23/2015 11:12:51 AM] Celedethor: because they sound better [12/23/2015 11:13:19 AM] Celedethor: and you use No! as imperative [12/23/2015 11:13:53 AM] Celedethor: when i play like i would heal some minor injury i always say "no nestannen!" "Be healed" [12/23/2015 11:17:51 AM] Gelaníril: So, when you say no nestannen, the word no is an imperative. So, what grammar term is the nestannen? Because it looks like a verb, but I don't think it is acting like one here. [12/23/2015 11:19:36 AM] Sidhiel: Should be one of the past participles [12/23/2015 11:20:27 AM] Sidhiel: Passive participle [12/23/2015 11:20:49 AM] Sidhiel: But i could be wrong
[12/23/2015 11:23:27 AM] Celedethor: perhaps but that was an example of something like an order [12/23/2015 11:23:51 AM] Celedethor: using the imperative [12/23/2015 11:23:59 AM] Gelaníril: he is ordering someone to become healed. [12/23/2015 11:25:32 AM] Gelaníril: So, you are using two verbs to accomplish the needed command. Correct? Kind of like sometimes occurs in English. [12/23/2015 11:25:57 AM] Celedethor: basically [12/23/2015 11:26:01 AM] Sidhiel: Be silent! [12/23/2015 11:26:08 AM] Sidhiel: Just like that [12/23/2015 11:26:32 AM] Celedethor: but yes since it is a participle the verb is more like an adjective
[12/23/2015 11:39:46 AM] Celedethor: t what I always did was:
Ni Celedethor (when speaking to someone on the same level) Im Celedethor (when I feel like being arrogant) naun [adjective] (to describe my state of being) [12/23/2015 11:40:18 AM] Celedethor: or naun [title] like in "i am the moorsdestroyer" [12/23/2015 11:40:21 AM] Xandarien: *nods Yes, I like that, and it fits, it feels right
Note: At this time, this topic is still being discussed, and more information will likely be forthcoming in the new year.
[5:05:07 AM] Xandarien: Right, let's do something a bit different today then Sindarin snippets you haven't seen before ('cos I'm translating them on the fly) for you to translate. When someone's got the first one right, I'll post the next, and so on... (Bonus points if you tell me where the English originally comes from, but that's just a bit of fun, the point is the translation!)
[5:06:53 AM] Xandarien: 1 Pân savog i naur gîn, a i had boe raithog [5:27:09 AM] Xandarien: You're so close I'll give you the answer: 1) All you possess is your fire, and the place you need to reach
[5:29:23 AM] Xandarien: 2 Ir nónen hên hemmin anann, tirol min ruist [5:57:56 AM] Marc (Thyraellas): When i was a child i sat for a long time, looking at a fireplace
[6:42:16 AM] Xandarien: 3 Am i ruist i naur caran. Nuin dobas haust ennas. [8:04:18 AM] Xandarien: And the answer is... Upon the fireplace the fire is red Under the roof there is a bed
[9:17:15 AM] Xandarien: 4 Dha amlug vorn vi gador, a i eneth dîn Pen-nagol [9:37:05 AM] Marc (Thyraellas): There is a black dragon in a prison, and his name is Pen-Nagol [9:42:52 AM] Xandarien: Okay half a minute His name, is Pen- 'less, without', Nagol = tooth. Toothless.
[9:47:58 AM] Xandarien: 5 Elrond sâf roch, i northant dan ionent. [9:53:19 AM] Xandarien: Should be ynent with an accent sorry, was either Ioned or Ynent and I mashed them together [9:58:04 AM] Marc (Thyraellas): Elrond has a horse, But the dwellings [are X] [10:20:17 AM] Sidhiel Antithil: Their sons? [10:20:37 AM] Sidhiel Antithil: -Ent ..pronoun suffix
10:26:43 AM] Xandarien: 6 I aur hen bess teitha parf eden oh i lam Thinndrim [10:40:50 AM] Gelaníril: Today, the maiden begins to write a new book about the Sindarin language. [10:44:56 AM] Xandarien: Yip you've pretty much got that, other than I wouldn't ever say Bess is a maiden, just a woman . The answer is "Today a woman writes a new book about the Sindarin language" (I should have put a verb for 'to begin' in haha, that sounds much better, but it was the meaning I was going for)
[11:17:52 AM] Xandarien: 7 Núf i vinuial, lerin lhossog vi i lostad gîn, "ú dhafo i galan mabo den" [11:18:43 AM] Xandarien: Pe ingog i laer gellathon... if you guess the song, I will rejoice ;D [11:56:15 AM] Gelaníril: In the early morning hours, I hear you whisper in your sleep, "Don't let the day take it". [11:56:27 AM] Xandarien: Almost!!! [11:56:58 AM] Xandarien: Take 'him', but you wouldn't know that, as Den can be either
[10:50:47 AM] Xandarien: Well, if you're an Elf, any woman who isn't married is automatically a maiden, but maiden doesn't necessarily imply age (it tends to mean you're under 50, but if you didn't marry you could be 10,000). [10:50:58 AM] Xandarien: Dess = Young woman (under 50 I reckon) [10:51:40 AM] Xandarien: Bess = Woman (probably a bit older as can also mean wife, but not ancient as does say 'young') [10:51:56 AM] Xandarien: Gwend = Maiden (of any age) [10:52:49 AM] Xandarien: Hervess = Wife, so any woman who's married (over 50, but anything from 50 to infinity). [10:53:38 AM] Xandarien: If you want to say 'an old woman' then you're going to have to say Bess iaur = Ancient woman (no connotation of weakness, remember, in Elves). [10:55:23 AM] Xandarien: Bess ingem = Old woman (mortal woman)
[11:56:20 AM] Xandarien: The way to tell Minuial and Aduial apart by the way, is a little trick: Mîn - one Tâd - two Minuial - first twilight, dawn Aduial - second twilight, sunset
[10:33:09 AM] Xandarien: Back to the chocolate, if I may...
When a language creates a new word (e.g. when we make reconstructions for Sindarin) the language always has two options. Translate for sense, or translate for etymology? If it's accepting a loan word, it boils down to "make the pronunciation of the original match the target", e.g. kredito kardo in Japanese from credit card, or le weekend in French, or when a CH word from English enters German it either begins with a TH sound or a S depending on the original.
If we treat chocolate as a direct loan word (for which Sindarin has a basis, Craban was originally 'a Mannish word'), the closest pronunciation approximation would be in my opinion, Socolat. LH isn't close enough phonetically to CH (English CH that is, not Sindarin CH).
If we treat it etymologically (which is always my chosen route when doing this sort of thing), then we have to look back at what it originally meant in the original language, which as Marc correctly points out, is 'bitter water'. This would produce Nen + Saer, and give us either Saernen or Nenhaer.
The other option, which I will never agree with, is to translate the current meaning of the word which would be something along the lines of 'product of the cacao tree' or 'sweet confectionery made from a tree'. Rubbish.
[10:34:38 AM] Marc (Thyraellas): And what do you think of the translation of the greek Theobroma??? Just want to know your opinion on that
[10:35:14 AM] Xandarien: That's just the taxonomic classification of the plant, and should bear no relevance
[11:00:00 AM] Sidhiel Annithil: Saig........ Kinda refuse to use saith....
[11:00:07 AM] Sidhiel Annithil: I'm hungry now
[12:18:14 PM] Xandarien: I didn't want you to use Saith
[12:18:30 PM] Xandarien: I was espousing the merits of Maud/Madu
[12:25:34 PM] Gelaníril: so, can you say again, why Maud/madu would be better than saig? I didn't catch more than "its another option"
[12:30:26 PM] Xandarien: Yes certainly, I never got that far
[12:32:02 PM] Celedethor: Sneaks into position...
[12:33:25 PM] Xandarien: In true Tolkien fashion he left this note amongst a note for a different root entirely, and used it as an example. This tends to suggest it's also written somewhere else, but we don't have that note yet -.- -.-
[12:33:53 PM] Xandarien: So, we start with the knowledge that we have a root MAT which means 'eat'
[12:34:47 PM] Xandarien: From this we get Mad- = to eat, Ammad- = to devour, Maeda- = to feed, Megli = Bear (honey eater) and various Quenya words
[12:35:23 PM] Celedethor: Hopefully that note will appear in PE 23 (cool)
[12:35:29 PM] Xandarien: Oh aye, we can hope
[12:37:40 PM] Xandarien: And then we get this, the note sandwiched between others:
"So matwa [>] madw > maud or madu. ... lisya 'sweet' > leich, laich pl. lîch"
Well this is clearly a list of three (I missed out the one in the middle) adjectives, and their origins (how they phonologically [that's sound development] developed). It's all about the dropping of final vowels over time and the loss of final -w
[12:38:47 PM] Xandarien: From study of the languages and all the notes of the sound changes we know that matwa comes from the same root MAT 'to eat', and that it's an adjective. But like I say in true Tolkien fashion he didn't write the damn meaning !
[12:39:37 PM] Xandarien: However, what we do have is Maita = hungry in Quenya, and through various trickery we can see that Maud/Madu is the Sindarin equivalent of that.
[12:40:33 PM] Celedethor: I agree on the "trickery" point
[12:42:19 PM] Celedethor: That is true but at first i read maita as being maeda- in sindarin
[12:43:51 PM] Gelaníril: I liked saig. it was nice and easy.
[12:44:22 PM] Xandarien: Oh and we also have Madweg = Gluttonous, indicating that it would take more of the base stem
[12:47:07 PM] Xandarien: -wa in primitive Eldarin was an adjectival ending which ended up turning into -w in Noldorin and generally -u in Sindarin (Anu, male, Inu, female) so we can tell it's an adjective [12:50:51 PM] Gelaníril: so... maud...madu...maeta...maita... :^)
How do I say I have a rumbling tummy?
[12:51:34 PM] Marc / Thyraellas Sunwind: Ni maeta?
[1:03:15 PM] Xandarien: Oh no in Sindarin it's clearly Maud (later Sindarin), Madu (earlier Sindarin). First of all the -W on the end turns into a -U so that gives you Madu for the Noldorin, then it changed into Maud for the Third Age
Amy: Hello! I am confused about the verb nautha-. In lesson 17 the dialog at the start has “nauthog” for “you think”, then “semin” for “I think”. Is nautha- one of the irregular verbs? I can’t find anything else it in the lessons or dictionary. Thank you!
Jul 12, 2020 2:56:39 GMT
Xandarien: Suilad! There have been two verbs used for 'to think', I apologise for the confusion. There's Nautha- 'to conceive an idea, think' and Sam- 'to think. Sam- should have been removed everywhere as it was a reconstruction that we don't need. I'll change that.
Jul 13, 2020 8:47:43 GMT
Amy: Thank you! I really enjoy the lessons. Len hannon!
Jul 14, 2020 2:16:08 GMT
Halcyon: Suilad, Mae l’ovannen!
Sept 11, 2020 15:15:50 GMT
Halcyon: I’ve just started taking these lessons, and I’m really learning a lot already! The format you’ve presented the lessons in is easy to navigate. Thank you for creating this website!
Sept 11, 2020 15:17:34 GMT
Teryn: Wow, this website is amazing! I started the lessons two days ago and I'm already using phrases with some friends of mine. Thank you sooo much for creating this, I can't tell you how helpful it is!!
Sept 14, 2020 23:34:15 GMT
Xandarien: You're both very welcome, and if you're 16 or over don't forget I have a Discord
Sept 15, 2020 19:46:27 GMT