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Post by Xandarien on Apr 19, 2015 19:34:14 GMT
I didn't add one because it ends in a vowel sound, but I think you might get away with Eluiwen = Starry maiden. The others, like 'il' and 'el' wouldn't work.
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Post by Berion on Jun 17, 2015 10:41:24 GMT
Xandarien, could you check my dialog please?
Original:
Aragorn gobada adan caeleb na Imladris. Reviar min daur galen. Govadar edhel.
Aragorn: Mae govannen! Edhel: Arad vaer! Man eneth lîn? Aragorn: Im Aragorn Arathornion. Tegin vellon nîn na Imladris, e caeleb. Edhel: Cenin. Im Eglerion. Pelin tulu? Aragorn: Ma. Sí yrch rim. Gobada ven a dago hain! Edhel: Mae. Mellon gîn fîr. Tolo!
Thinna. Aduial tel min Ennorath.
Edhel: Aragorn, tiro! Aragorn: Man cenig? Edhel: Nîn luin Bruinen. A Elbereth, ennas Imladris! Aragorn: Ma, ha ennas! Hannon, Eglerion. Novaer! Edhel: Glassen. Cuio vae, Aragorn Arathornion!
Translation:
Aragorn goes with the sick man to Rivendell. They wanders in the green forest. They meet an elf.
Aragorn: Greetings! Elf: Good day! What is your name? Aragorn: I am Aragorn, son of Arathorn. I lead my friend to Rivendell, he is sick. Elf: I see. I am Eglerion. Can I help? Aragorn: Yes. There are a lot of orcs here. Go with us and kill them! Elf: Ok. Your friend is dying. Let's go!
It is getting dark. Evening is coming to Middle-Earth.
Elf: Aragorn, look! Aragorn: What can you see? Elf: Blue waters of Briuinen. O Elbereth, there is Rivendell! Aragorn: Yeah, it is there! Thank you, Eglerion. Bye! Elf: My pleasure. See you later, Aragorn, son of Arathorn!
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Post by Xandarien on Jun 17, 2015 14:34:38 GMT
Xandarien, could you check my dialog please? Aragorn gobada adan caeleb na Imladris. Reviar min daur galen. Govadar edhel. Aragorn: Mae govannen! Edhel: Arad vaer! Man eneth lîn? Aragorn: Im Aragorn Arathornion. Tegin vellon nîn na Imladris, e caeleb. Edhel: Cenin. Im Eglerion. Pelin tulu? Aragorn: Ma. Sí yrch rim. Gobada ven a dago hain! Edhel: Mae. Mellon gîn fîr. Tolo! Thinna. Aduial tel min Ennorath. Edhel: Aragorn, tiro! Aragorn: Man cenig? Edhel: Nîn luin Bruinen. A Elbereth, ennas Imladris! Aragorn: Ma, ha ennas! Hannon, Eglerion. Novaer! Edhel: Glassen. Cuio vae, Aragorn Arathornion! Alrighty... Long post incoming! Gobada = He walked together. You can use this if you just reword the sentence slightly: Aragorn a adan gaeleb gobada na Imladris = Aragorn and a sick man walked together to Rivendell Do you mean 'a man of the race of man' by the way? If you just mean 'a man' as the opposite of 'a woman' then use benn. It sounds a little odd as Aragorn is also of the Race of Man (albeit the Dúnedain branch of it). You forgot mutation on Caeleb, but in this case I don't think I'd use it as it means 'bedridden', i.e. he wouldn't be walking anywhere!  I'd use Lhaew = Sickly, ill. Govadar edhel -> Covar edhel = They meet an Elf. Guessing you're using Govada- from Thorsten's course instead of the later more accurate Cova- = to meet? Man eneth lîn -> Man i eneth lîn. Don't forget the definite article, it's not optional unless we're writing poetry, and if we're using the formal 'thy' instead of the informal 'gîn' you wouldn't leave it out. Tegin vellon nîn na Imladris, e caeleb -> Tegin mellonenin/melloneg na Imladris. Sâf cael. Your sentence literally translates as 'I am bringing my friend (who I own) to Imladris. He is sickness (as in he literally is something called sickness). E is an emphatic pronoun and isn't the same as the English verb 'to be', though it's easy to confuse them. My reworded sentence says 'I am bringing my friend/dear friend to Imladris. He has a sickness.' I know it's ingrained in a lot of people by now because it was used in the films, but you wouldn't say mellon nîn as it implies possession. -enen is the possessive suffix (in the Lord of the Rings, Gandalf says Lammen = my tongue) and -eg is a diminutive suffix, meaning 'my little friend, my dear friend'. Pelin tulu -> Boe rethol?Pelin is either the verb Pel- = to fade, Pelin = I fade or the reconstructed Pol- = to be able to which I prefer to render as Polin = I can but would also possibly appear as the homophone Pelin = I can. Tulu = 'Support, prop' as in a beam that supports weight. So this either says "I fade a support" or "I can a support".  There are various ideas on how to say 'help'. Alia- = to help, bless. Reth- or Reitha- = to save (from edraith = saving). Atha- = to ease, to help. They're all reconstructed. My version is Boe rethol? = Dost thee need help? (Or Boe reithol? = Dost thee need help?). Ma -> either Boe rethin/Boe reithon = I need help or Ná = Yes I'm aware Renk uses Ma to mean 'Yes' but it doesn't. It's an interjection that only means 'good' and is archaic. If you want to agree with something, repeat the question but change the tense (so here, we have "Do you need help?" "I need help.") Ná is a reconstruction based on common sense and Quenya from the verb Na-. Gobada ven a dago hain -> either Gobado adh ven a dhago hain! or Tolo adh ven a dhago hain!Gobado adh ven a dhago din! = Walk together with us and slay them Tolo adh ven a dhago din! = Come with us and slay them Remember 'a' causes soft mutation. (T)Din = Them. Hain = Those. Mae -> sounds like an attempt at the English 'okay'? I suppose the subject could be missing and the Elf is saying "(It is) well". Mellon gîn fîr -> You've switched from the formal to informal. Is this intended? Either way swap Mellon gîn to either Mellonegen or Mellonelen. Aduial tel min Ennorath -> Aduial tôl na Ennorathmin = in the tôl = it comes Ma, ha ennas! -> Ma, de ennasHa = an old Noldorin pronoun (t)De = it is. Modern Sindarin. Hannon, Eglerion -> Gin/Len hannon, Eglerion. Need a pronoun otherwise you're saying 'I thank Eglerion'.
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Post by Berion on Jun 17, 2015 18:02:57 GMT
Thank you for such detailed review!
I didn't understand everything, so I have a couple of questions:
1) Isn't Lhaew means "frequent"? 2) Where did you find cova-? At what resource? I have never seen it. 3) I know about possibility of suffixes using, but why do you think that nîn implies possesion? I mean that I haven't seen something like this in any articles about Sindarin. I read about în (that probably it is a possesive pronoun) but found something only about that one. 4) Sâf from sav-? Why did "v" change to "f"? 5) Caeleb is an adjective, so it means "sick", not "sickness". So why E caeleb will mean "he is sickness" and not "he is sick"? 6) Go- has already a meaning of "with", so why is it necessary to use adh? 7) Renk uses "sain" as an object pronoun for "them", why do you think that din is better? 8) I know that Mae looks strange, but how to show that the character agreed? 9) Again, where did you find de as modern Sindarin word? I know that ha is from Noldorin, but have never seen de.
Thanks for your help!
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Post by Xandarien on Jun 17, 2015 19:36:45 GMT
1) In Noldorin Lhaew = Frequent, many and Thlaew = sick, ill. In modern Sindarin Lhaew -> Laew and Thlaew ->Lhaew. 2) Parma Eldalamberon #17, in a discussion about Tolkien's final decision on what Mae G'ovannen meant. Page 158 - from the root KOB/KOM, S. Cova- come together, meet. 3) în is a reflexive pronoun from the King's Letter "Ar e aníra ennas suilannad mhellyn în phain" = And he desires a meeting of all his own friends. We know that these are possessive from the following attested phrases: Alae! ered en Echoriath, ered e·mbar nín = Alas! Mountains of Echoriath, mountains of my home Caro den i innas lîn = Thy will be done i mbas ilaurui vín = Our daily bread 4) It's the same pronunciation, I just favour using 'f' over 'v'. 5) Stylistic difference! "He is 'something called sick'" then. 6) The only glossed meaning is 'together'. Admittedly if you're doing something together with someone you are doing it 'with' someone, so perhaps you could leave out the preposition. 7) 'Them' and 'those' are only the same word in some English dialects, and most people would say it's 'wrong'. "Them apples" is hardly Standard English! Din is the plural of Den. It -> Them. 8) Given the lack of a concrete way of saying 'yes', I'm not convinced other than through hand movements they would show agreement in the same way we do in English. (Ask not an Elf a question for they will say both yes and no!) 9) Extrapolation from the object pronoun den. All pronouns in Sindarin follow a pattern. Attested are in bold, extrapolations are in italics. The order is nominative -> object -> possessive and this is before soft mutation has been applied, these are the base forms.
Ni -> Nin -> Nîn = I am -> Me -> My Le -> Len -> Lîn = Thou art -> Thee -> Thy/Thine De -> Den -> Dîn = You are -> You -> Your (Doriathrin) Ci -> Cin -> Cîn = You are -> You -> Your (Informal modern Sindarin) Te -> Ten -> Tîn = He/she/it is -> Him/her/it -> Their Se -> Sen -> Sin = This is -> This -> These Sa -> San -> Sain = That is -> That -> Those
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Post by Berion on Jun 17, 2015 22:50:26 GMT
I understood almost everything except two things:
1) (About possesive pronouns) If I understood correctly, in every example that we have - "nîn", "lîn" and etc are possesive. But it doesn't make them possesive, doesn't it? There is no disproof that they can be simple pronouns without possesive properties.
2) Sorry, but I still can't understand about "de" ("te"). What resources did you use? (like you wrote about "cova-" and Parma - it really helps me). Because I haven't seen anything about "de/te" anywhere.
Thanks!
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Post by Xandarien on Jun 18, 2015 7:35:45 GMT
Er... what? They're glossed as possessive pronouns, their meanings are quite distinct from the nominative and the object, and they act as adjectives as they take soft mutation. We also have the emphatic pronouns (Im, Ech, E/Est) which are attested (Hollin Gate inscription and PE/17), and again Tolkien specifically stated that is what they were. The only ones people have ever argued over are 'den' in 'caro den' and 'în' in the King's Letter. The others are all well glossed and translated by Tolkien. nîn = my in Vinyar Tengwar #44 and Unfinished Tales lîn = thy in Vinyar Tengwar #44 mín = our in Vinyar Tengwar #44 (There's a theme, these three are all in the Lord's Prayer  ) sín = these from the Hollin Gate inscription (Celebrimbor o Eregion teithant i thiw hín) The use of the direct object with the pronoun (i thiw hín = 'the letters these', these letters; i eneth lín = 'the name thy', thy name etc.) is identical to Welsh grammar where the possessive pronoun is an adjective following the noun and the noun is preceded by the direct object (y ty tau = thy house). Sindarin is well known for having its grammar based on Welsh. As I tried to illustrate with the wee table, Sindarin pronouns follow patterns. Object pronouns have an -n suffix (nin, len, den, ten etc.), the vowel lengthens for possession, and the -n suffix disappears for the nominative (ni, ci). Thus it's not much of a leap to say from den = it, you remove the suffix -n to give you te = he/she/it (we know it's not de = he/she/it because den has undergone soft mutation as the object of Caro).
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Post by Berion on Jun 25, 2015 21:32:30 GMT
Sorry about not answering for a long time - I have been in a place where wasn't Internet at all. Probably my English is too bad  I asked about why I can't say "mellon nîn". I can't understand that. Thank you about "te", I got it. And one more question: how to say "Aragorn is looking at the moon"? What preposition should I use? Probably something like "Aragorn tirig na Ithil"? Or "ned"? Or maybe "anin" (by the way, it is a compound preposition - "to the", isn't it? So, could you separate it into two simple?)?
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Post by Xandarien on Jun 26, 2015 8:17:22 GMT
And one more question: how to say "Aragorn is looking at the moon"? What preposition should I use? Probably something like "Aragorn tirig na Ithil"? Or "ned"? Or maybe "anin" (by the way, it is a compound preposition - "to the", isn't it? So, could you separate it into two simple?)? I would say Aragorn tiria/tîr na i Ithil = Aragorn gazes at the moon Anin is 'to/for the' not 'at the', so it wouldn't mean the same thing if you used it.
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Post by Berion on Jun 27, 2015 0:07:36 GMT
Thanks.
How to say "shop"? Would I be right if I said "bachenadab", "bachenchar" or "bachenbar" ("bachen" - "trading" from "bach" - a thing for trade)? And also a question about the word "buy". Could I find anything close to it in sindarin? I don't even know the words that in combination can be something similar to this.
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Post by Xandarien on Jun 27, 2015 9:28:03 GMT
I would follow Tolkien's names for places (Bar-in-Gwael, Bar-in-Mŷl) and say Bar Bangad = House of trading or Bar-i-Mbaich = House of goods.
The verb for 'to trade' is Banga-. Bangon = I buy, I trade, etc.
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Post by Berion on Jun 27, 2015 22:31:53 GMT
It will be "Bar Vangad", won't it? There should be a lenition, am I right?
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Post by Xandarien on Jun 28, 2015 7:59:42 GMT
I was giving you an example of a place name without an attached article (like Amon Sûl, Rath Celerdain - these don't show mutation either). If you want it with attached article, Banga has an MB root: Bar-e-Mbangad = House of the trading
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Post by kianeves on Jul 18, 2015 17:58:20 GMT
Good afternoon, everybody! My name is Kiara Neves and I just started learning this wonderful language, Sindarin. I'm currently in lesson 3, and something just popped into my mind: How can I translate my name into Sindarin? I've read some threads, and I know my name will be translated by it's meanings, so I'll just attach them here:
Kiara = Italian. Means "Enlightened" in a female form Neves = Portuguese. Means "Snow", but it's a plural form, which does not exist in English.
Thank you very much for the attention! Galu!
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Post by Celebringon on Jul 18, 2015 19:40:06 GMT
Suilad Kiara! I had to dig a little bit but for your first name I needed to use the synonym "wise": Wise woman: Idhrenel Saeleth Noenel feel free to pick one of these  For your last name: snow = loss and in plural it would be "lyss" but I am not sure if it can be pluralised in sindarin... Galu!
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